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Author Topic: Why are ST classes still not grouped together?  (Read 394 times)
Redline91
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« on: August 09, 2020, 12:18:10 PM »

Why are there still individual classes that are not grouped with their category?

I brought this up years and years ago when the street categories were grouped into SR, SF, SA about all the other classes getting grouped together in their categories (ST, SP, P, M) and that administration seemed to think it was impossible to run events that way. Now that's exactly what we are doing except ST seems to be inexplicably left out. Is there a reason for that?

IMO it's always more fun to have a larger class to compete against.

SCC -> ST
SSR -> SP

No one should really care what I think though, I rarely run events at OVR, but I think this is silly...
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Todd K. - Usually driving a Civic. Owns STX BRZ, STH GTI.
BRZBoy
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Posts: 229


« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2020, 06:28:28 AM »

First things first; Dan and I are new to running the group this year. We don't have a lot of the backstory on how we got to where we are and why. Some things are obvious and others are less so.

That being said, I think this is something we would consider in the off season. I know that we have some significant differences between the ST classes that may have made mixing them into one group more difficult.  However, I'm wondering if we couldn't do a ST FWD, ST RWD and ST AWD for example. However, as I think about it, the lines may not be quite that simple either.

It's definitely worth the discussion. I don't know if you do Facebook but it might be worth throwing out there too to get more opinions.
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CP - 1992 Ford Thunderbird
Simi
AX Chief's round table member
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« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2020, 09:52:44 AM »

in ALL honestly I think the last time anyone gave any thought to classes and groups was here:
as we all know things evolve and classes dip in #'s / registration and I remember we used to revisit this every year at the start of the season to make sure we were running the right groupings...


Based on feedback, here's the latest draft as of 7-Jan-2015.

Index Classes -
SF:    Street FWD  
SR:    Street RWD  
SA:    Street AWD  
SP:    Street Prepared (SSP to FSP)
P:      Prepared (XP to FP)
M:     Modified (AM to FM)
SM:   Street Mod   (SM, SSM, SMF)
L:     Ladies
X:     Pax  

Individual Classes -
SS-R
STF
STS
STX
STR
STU
KM
JA
JB
JC
SMS (regional class; all Street Mod classes on street tires; 0.853)
CAM (regional class; includes CAM-T; CAM-C; CAM-S; 0.836)

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Simi
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« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2020, 09:54:19 AM »

since we're on the subject of classes anyway...

I also find running pax class not as a group in the same heat totally silly, the whole point was to run PAX people against each other in the same heat with the same conditions etc etc... that was why it was brought about to begin with. If we are  just index racing all in different heats we shouldn't be in the same class  Roll Eyes No idea when it changed but it's pretty pointless having grouped classes if those groups aren't going to run at the same time in the same conditions.
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BRZBoy
Sr. Member
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Posts: 229


« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2020, 10:13:38 AM »

since we're on the subject of classes anyway...

I also find running pax class not as a group in the same heat totally silly, the whole point was to run PAX people against each other in the same heat with the same conditions etc etc... that was why it was brought about to begin with. If we are  just index racing all in different heats we shouldn't be in the same class  Roll Eyes No idea when it changed but it's pretty pointless having grouped classes if those groups aren't going to run at the same time in the same conditions.

Honestly, this was done to address the worker situation. When we had a very large number of our core group/chiefs running in PAX we would end up in a scenario where we didn't have enough workers for that run group. Now that the dynamics have changed I think this is something that we may be able to address.  I'll mention it to our chiefs and see if we can address it for the next events.

Edited to say that Dan and I are open to ideas for most things (related to Solo-OVR). We don't know what we don't know and if there are things that could be improved or changed that will make things better for all then we're open to it. Since this is a total volunteer role, I'm not sure having a Chair/Co-Chair concept makes as much sense as have a Solo Board might help more. It would potentially reduce the workload on any one individual.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 10:19:49 AM by BRZBoy » Logged

CP - 1992 Ford Thunderbird
dps214
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Posts: 209


« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2020, 11:35:25 AM »

Just to clarify, skilled workers. Ie if everyone that knows how to run the timing system, grid etc are all in the same heat, bad things can happen. Now that our timing system troubles have (hopefully?) been largely resolved and I believe we have a few more experienced workers, that may not be as big of a deal. I believe that's at least part of the reason why NWOR split their pax class into street and race tire groups. I'd say we could do something like that, but we really don't get many race tire cars so that wouldn't work out very well. Maybe some other split, street vs higher classes, or something? I would also like to have pax class run together, but if it's the difference between a smooth running event and not, I can live with it.
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Dan Shea
'90 Miata - 13 STS
'15 Fiesta ST - not an autocross car, I swear
'86 944 Turbo - probably not currently on fire
'00 M Roadster SC
Redline91
Jr. Member
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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2020, 10:43:45 AM »

A lot of these problems can be relieved by making sure your experienced workers are working the first heat to get the event started. The frequency of problems should go down as the event goes on.

It's really important to have a class that is scored together to run together though. Without that, it might as well be a test and tune. The conditions at NTR change drastically throughout the day.
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Todd K. - Usually driving a Civic. Owns STX BRZ, STH GTI.
BRZBoy
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Posts: 229


« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2020, 10:55:24 AM »

A lot of these problems can be relieved by making sure your experienced workers are working the first heat to get the event started. The frequency of problems should go down as the event goes on.

It's really important to have a class that is scored together to run together though. Without that, it might as well be a test and tune. The conditions at NTR change drastically throughout the day.

Point taken and we'll attempt to make sure that PAX runs together going forward.

Regarding ST; it would be a change we would make for next season. I'm all for it, we just need to work out the details in MSR and Pronto and we also have half a season of points to keep in mind right now.
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CP - 1992 Ford Thunderbird
splash
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You can see what I'm thinking about!


« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2020, 02:23:53 PM »

I know that, at the time, the ST category was too big to group like street/prepared/modified. Leaving them broken out made balancing workers in the heats easier.
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STU 82/182
OVR Youth/Kart Steward
BRZBoy
Sr. Member
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Posts: 229


« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2020, 03:58:11 PM »

I know that, at the time, the ST category was too big to group like street/prepared/modified. Leaving them broken out made balancing workers in the heats easier.

Yep. I agree. We may have to consider what our subscription looked like overall this year and then make a decision. Unfortunately we can't do something like ST AWD and ST RWD and ST FWD because ST doesn't really work like that. I mean, I guess we could but it would feel wonky just like SR, SA and SF do.  Grin
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CP - 1992 Ford Thunderbird
AlanLGuy
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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2020, 10:47:28 PM »

Yup, what Mike said. At the time we grouped them together it wasnít unusual to have 12-15 STX cars, 6-8 STU, though STS and STR were usually much less well subscribed.

We grouped them because member feedback was that they really like the old RT* classes because it meant you always had other guys in your class to compete against rather than the single car classing. We applied the same thought to Modified and Prepared and Street Prepared because of the same reason.

Demographics have shifted a lot. Definitely worth revisiting.

On the PAX conversation, Alex and Jeff made that change last year because there were a few events were we literally didnít have enough people to run a heat because every chief except maybe 2 ran in PAX and several of our setup/tech workers also worked pax. Also helped with the Safety Steward situation when all our safety stewards ran in the same class.


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- Alan Guy
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